veil_of_dreams

An Enduring Faith, extras

2006-12-22T23:45:08Z

EXTRAS

These have little/nothing to do with Naruto/Hinata, but reading them should give a better perspective on some of my viewpoints.

Extra 1: The Hyuuga Clan Conclusion

I had originally believed Hinata would most likely become the Hyuuga clan head, but I started to reconsider my standing after a debate with Phoenixblood. The problem with my view was simple: While I was thinking a lot about Hinata’s character/resolution regarding the clan, I had (for some reason I can no longer fathom) completely overlooked Neji.

So I started studying Hinata and Neji a little more, and came to realize that Hinata becoming clan head is not nearly as important/likely as Neji becoming clan head, from a character resolution point of view.

Hinata’s character is themed primarily around changing herself. While her becoming clan head would certainly prove she changed and had received Hiashi’s acknowledgment, it isn’t required. Hinata can still receive acknowledgment of her change regardless of whether or not she becomes the Hyuuga head, though I would certainly like for it to be implied/stated that Hinata would make a worthy clan head.

Neji, however, is themed primarily around changing destiny, and his ‘destiny’ is supposedly to suffer the curse of a branch house member despite apparently being the strongest Hyuuga of his generation. While this could be resolved simply by the caged bird seal being removed somehow, it is likely Neji will become clan head in the end, if you consider the fact that Hiashi has acknowledged Neji as the strongest Hyuuga of his generation and the fact that he is now training Neji. Since Neji can resolve his ‘changing destiny’ theme by becoming the clan head, and he’d likely be first choice for clan head anyway if the seal is removed, I really would be shocked if Neji did not become the next leader of the Hyuuga.

I suppose it’s also possible that Hinata could become clan head, change the Hyuuga, and pass the mantle to Neji, but that seems like an overly roundabout way of resolving things, especially since Hiashi now seems to think the clan situation needs to change.

Extra 2: Overshadow this, overshadow that.

This rant has been building up in my head every time I read your ‘overshadowed’ arguments. Be warned that when I say ‘rant’, it means I’m not going to pull any punches on this one.

Let’s start here, with this excerpt from the anti-Naruto/Hinata essay:

(Part 1, section II, point 5) “Hinata has suffered so much and worked so hard to get acknowledgement, starting with her family. Yet if she were to get married to Naruto... she'd end up being seen not for herself, but as "the Hokage's wife." There is nothing humiliating in of itself to be "the Hokage's wife", but it means that people would forever see her not for her own accomplishments, but for being the wife of the incredible person that is Naruto.”

This is a reasonable argument because you mention it in context of Hinata’s desire for acknowledgment, and I have argued why I think you’re wrong in the corresponding part of my counter. But since then, you have pushed the ‘overshadowing’ argument further and further to the point of ridiculousness.

From later in the anti-Naruto/Hinata essay:

(Part 2, section II, point 4) “I don't see it as the best thing for Hinata either, as Naruto's role as village leader would overshadow her own role as clan leader whether she likes it or not. >__<”

(Part 2, section IV, point 3) “But wait! If Hinata becomes clan leader, wouldn't she Get something "more"? Hell no, her "something more" would still be completely overshadowed by Naruto's own similar background resolution of him becoming Hokage. =\ Paths too similar. And Hinata would also look like just a watered-down Naruto on all the other aspects as well: strength, inspirational values, etc... On her own and without Naruto in sight so to say, she'd be able to stand out for herself. But if there's Naruto always right next to her, people would be more prompt to label her "the Hokage's wife" than seeing her for herself. I actually also view it as an acknowledgement problem as well in the end. People would not see her for HER, but as being paired up with Naruto.”

These imply that even if Hinata has earned the respect of the Hyuuga clan and Naruto (Which is all she really wants), she still shouldn’t be in a relationship with Naruto, since his role as Hokage would overshadow hers as clan head. However, the argument was still tolerable to me, because it was apparently made with the previous argument in mind, thinking that Hinata could not receive the acknowledgment she desires in a relationship with Naruto.

But in your Naruto/Sakura manifesto, you push it too far:

(Annex, section II, point 1) “The fact is also that Sakura is probably the only girl who won't get completely overshadowed by a Hokage Naruto.”

This implies that Naruto shouldn’t hook up with any girl he may overshadow, regardless of whether or not Naruto’s would-be partner would care about something like that. Whoa now, I’m not about to let that one fly.

Think about this for a second. By saying people shouldn’t be together because one would overshadow the other, you’re essentially applying a reputation based caste system to romance. Do you have any idea what kind of havoc this standard would wreak on the Naruto universe?

Let’s start with the obvious examples: The Kages.

We never hear about the third’s wife, so she must have been overshadowed. I guess that means Asuma and Konohamaru never should have been born (Of course, considering Asuma’s recent luck, he may have found this preferable). And how about the first Hokage? His wife has never been mentioned, so he shouldn’t have been in that relationship. That means we can say goodbye to his descendant Tsunade as well. Gee, that would sure suck for Sakura, wouldn’t it?

On top of that, if you subscribe to the Naruto = Yondaime’s son theory, that would nix Naruto himself, since we never hear about any relationship the Yondaime may have been in. What would the series be called then? Shikamaru? (Well, I’d still read it)

And if we take a look at neighboring Suna, we’ll see that Gaara’s mother never received any recognition beyond being that and the Kazekage’s wife. Sayonara, sand siblings.

As for people who were just plain famous, Kakashi’s father, Sakumo, was said to be a legendary ninja rivaling the sannin, but we’ve never heard of his wife. Looks like the Hatake clan should have died with him.

But let’s not stop there. How about the clan heads? The Aburame clan seems to be prestigious, but we never hear about the wife in Shibi’s life. So sorry Shino, but your mother isn’t famous enough to give birth to you. Mrs. Uchiha is a little better off, having actually received some screen time, but she still is shown only acting the role of ‘The Uchiha Mom’. Looks like that’s that for Sasuke and Itachi (Well, I guess that’s the silver lining of this particular cloud).

Of course, while it’s not certain, we can’t consider characters like Chouji, Kiba (The only one with a known mother, but not father. There’s a refreshing change) or Ino to be completely safe either. They might have to be axed as well.

Which leads me up to the biggest problem: By your standards, Hinata (and Hanabi) shouldn’t have been born. What’s the point of this essay, then? You may be trying to argue for a situation you consider more favorable for Hinata, but you seem to be doing her (And a sizeable portion of the Naruto cast) more harm than good.

An Enduring Faith, part 2

2006-12-22T23:43:53Z

- Part 2. Why NaruHina irks me "in canon" -

I. The lack of NaruHina in the current manga

I.1. Reminder: they've interacted for less than 2 hours in their lives...

Yes, and in those two hours, Hinata changed from ‘a shy dark weirdo’ to ‘a kind of person I really like’ in Naruto’s mind.

To paraphrase Darkhope: Development does not equal screen time. Naruto/Hinata has a good deal of development considering the relatively small amount of interaction between them. I bet you guessed this was coming: http://community.livejournal.com/ship_manifesto/157549.html

Besides, Naruto is a shounen manga. Kishimoto probably doesn’t plan on spending a lot of screen time on making an intricate romance.

“But wait! What about Naruto/Sakura?” Maybe, but Kishimoto has been keeping the feelings surrounding team 7 post-timeskip (Intentionally?) vague. It’s still not established whether or not Naruto still registers as just a friend (One of her best friends, undoubtedly, but a friend nonetheless) in Sakura’s mind, or how much Sakura has gotten over her feelings for Sasuke, if at all.

Still, I agree it would be disappointing for Hinata to appear, confess, and then BOOM! Instant Naruto/Hinata. If Naruto/Hinata happens, hopefully Kishimoto is going to add more development in that direction before the pairing actually emerges. During the upcoming team 8 arc, perhaps?

However, it should be noted that even if a romantic confession happens like this, it is highly unlikely that Naruto would shoot her down due to three factors:

1) Like I said before, it’s already been established that Naruto likes Hinata. And interestingly enough, he likes her for the exact same reason he likes Sakura: Her desire for acknowledgment. To deny that Naruto can develop romantic feelings for Hinata is to deny the core reason Naruto likes Sakura.

2) Though Naruto’s prime concern (at the moment) is rescuing Sasuke, in the past he has demonstrated a strong desire for a romantic kind of acknowledgment. Why else would he pursue Sakura so relentlessly in part 1, when she kept making it quite clear she wanted nothing to do with him, and everything to do with Sasuke? If Hinata is the first person to confess to having romantic feelings for Naruto, it will have a significant impact on him. While Naruto wouldn’t jump to the marriage altar the moment she confesses, he would definitely give Hinata a decent chance.

3) Remember that the theme of part 2 is “people accepting other people”.

Oh, and this isn’t meant to be taken as a serious argument, but Kishimoto once said this in a shounen jump interview about part 2: “I also want to put in romance that I wasn't able to in part 1. It seems difficult though.” It’s difficult to create a believable romance between two characters who have a pretty much permanent reason to be near each other on a regular basis? Maybe if Kishimoto sucks at romance (If you want to argue that, go for it). But building a believable romance between two characters who don’t have a convenient excuse to be near each other constantly... Now, that sounds a bit trickier. ;)

Lastly, as for Hinata focusing on Naruto’s problems to help herself instead of him, you're leaving out some important details.

As you say, Hinata did not try to reach out to Naruto during the academy days. However, like you say in part 2, section I, point 5, when a character is trying to relate to another’s pain, he/she needs to be able to not “talk out of his/her ass”. What could Hinata have said to Naruto? After all, from her own experience, a weak person like her could do nothing but fail, and she lost faith in her self worth. She may have thought he was admirable for constantly trying despite his failures, but could not truly say if his efforts would amount to anything. Imagine: Naruto and Hinata, the academy talk: “Don’t worry Naruto, I’m sure your efforts will pay off. I base this on the fact that I’ve done nothing but fail up to this point, and, well, you really haven’t done much better than I have, either.” I'm sure Naruto feels a lot better now.

However, despite Hinata focusing on Naruto's inspiration for her own benefit, she has shown the inclination to help Naruto on three separate occasions:

1) Offering him the chance to cheat off her test.

2) Offering him the medicinal cream after Naruto v. Kiba

3) Encouraging him on the training field before Naruto v. Neji

So while Hinata has used Naruto’s inspiration to help herself, she apparently has no qualms returning the favor if she thinks there’s something she can do.

Besides, from a storytelling standpoint, Hinata becoming closer to Naruto before even Iruka acknowledged him would have been way too easy. In such a scenario, Naruto/Hinata would likely already be canon.

I.2. Hinata didn't see Naruto's pain just for what it is, but by relating to him through the underdog aspect.

Yes, I agree Hinata did not know how lonely Naruto was. Remember what Kakashi told Inari? It’s likely that by the first time Hinata met Naruto, he had grown tired of crying, and refused to show any chinks in his armor of optimism and stubbornness. For Hinata to have had a chance to see how lonely he was, she most likely would have had to follow Naruto home, and despite what many anti-Hinata people say, she isn’t a stalker. -_-

“But wait! Iruka didn’t follow Naruto home, and he knew how lonely Naruto was. Why didn’t Hinata?” Simple: Because Iruka didn’t figure out Naruto’s loneliness by himself. Iruka was told of Naruto’s situation by the much wiser third hokage.

However, I wouldn’t discount Hinata’s shyness. This is how I see it:

Naruto was hated by the people of Konoha, but due to the Hokage’s law, there was nothing they could do. So people did what they usually do when there’s a problem they can’t fix: They ignored it. Naruto grew to hate being constantly treated like he wasn’t there, like he didn’t even exist, and became loud and pulled his pranks and stunts to get any attention he could, even negative.

By contrast, Hinata, as the heir to the main househould, likely received tons of attention. However, given her weakness and dislike of conflict, she was poorly suited to the role of a ninja, a role the Hyuuga clan required and expected of her. With Hinata being the heir to the Hyuuga clan, the Hyuugas didn’t have the option of ignoring her. As such, she constantly received nothing but negative attention (illustrated by Hiashi’s treatment of Hinata in flashbacks) to the point that she grew to fear the attention of others. That would explain her painfully shy nature and her habits of hiding and avoiding notice. It’s possible she never made any friends until she was placed on team 8, and had no choice but to interact with Kiba and Shino.

Of course, the time from Hinata’s rejection from the family to her graduation is tricky to predict, since we don’t know what Kurenai’s relationship with Hinata was/is. Perhaps she was Hinata’s Iruka, or perhaps she kept a professional distance from her and acted as little more than a tutor. However, considering Hinata credits Naruto for her transformation, the relationship between Hinata and Kurenai probably leans more towards the latter.

Yes, it’s true that her shyness was pathetic. Hell, regardless of the veracity of my speculation, the manga has made it clear that Hinata used to be a pathetic person. But in such a scenario, can you truly blame her?

Besides, like I said before, Naruto knowing of Hinata's acknowledgment before Iruka would've been way too easy.

I.3. But as such: how Hinata's impact on Naruto's life is pretty much overblow. She cheered him on the point that she related too, but missed Naruto's much greater pain of loneliness.

I’ve already explained my reasoning on Hinata being unaware of Naruto’s loneliness, and why Hinata probably did not reach out for him during the academy days.

By the way, this is the first image Hinata appears in.

It's a nice sized group of people, but still considerably smaller than the crowd you show.

I.4. In fact, the motivational speech itself barely had an impact on Naruto's life, or even on the Naruto vs Neji match: how Naruto was then motivated by other reasons.

Hinata’s speech didn’t mean any more than Lee’s speech, because he thought of both of them as reasons to keep fighting? By that logic, gold, silver, and bronze all have the same value, since I think of them whenever I think of metals. But that’s not the case, is it?

So, what had the most impact on Naruto’s drive to fight Neji? Here’s a hint: While Naruto was concerned about Hinata during Lee’s speech, he didn’t think of Lee at all while talking to Hinata out on the training field. Let me point out the progression to you:

So Naruto changed from someone held down by his doubts to someone who "totally believes in himself", and the only thing that happened between these two extremes is Naruto's talk with Hinata.

Don't even try to downplay Hinata's encouragement. Sure, Naruto still would've lost in the end without the Kyuubi's chakra, but Hinata herself has demonstrated how one's state of mind can be the difference between being crying, trembling, and ready to forfeit, and being prepared to fight with your all against the odds.

Once again, I don’t see why you think people have to suffer in the same ways to be viable partners, but I’ll remind you that on this little scale of yours, Sakura doesn’t relate to Naruto’s pains any better than Hinata; Sakura is merely in a better position to help him. I’ll discuss that in part 2, section II, point 3.

In addition, when it comes to Naruto’s pains, the (questionable) advantage of “losing one of his first bonds” that Sakura has over Hinata is likely to be a very temporary one. With Naruto’s foreshadowing of Sasuke’s redemption and the increasingly short time limit before Sasuke loses his body, the pain of losing Sasuke is probably not going to be a factor for long.

Well, that’s assuming Sasuke doesn’t die redeeming himself, but that’s still up in the air.

I.5. A broader look on the usage of themes and plotlines in Naruto

I agree with just about everything you’ve said here, except for my differing perspective on what needs to happen for Hinata (And Neji) to reach a full resolution, which I’ve already covered. Once again, if you care, check my extra “The Hyuuga Clan Conclusion” at the end of this essay.

II. How it's unlike to improve in the future: Hinata's total lack of connection to Naruto's current pains. Which don't represent any plotlines, they're the Main plotlines

You seem to have a strange obsession with pain. Your real name isn’t Hidan, is it?

II.1. The pains Hinata related to Naruto on are no longer his current pains

Actually, one of Naruto’s ‘current pains’ is one Hinata can relate to quite well. The genjutsu by pseudo-Itachi exhibits just how much Naruto feels pressured by obligations (Self imposed obligations, but obligations nonetheless) to not let people down.

If you add Naruto’s two failures to save Sasuke on top of this, it becomes quite apparent that Hinata and Naruto still have a ‘shared pain’ with which they can relate. After all, Hinata’s history was shaped by her failure to live up to the expectations of others.

That said, I still don’t see why Hinata needs to suffer in the same way as Naruto for them to have a relationship, especially considering that Sakura is no better at relating to Naruto’s pains than Hinata is, with the sole exception of the (likely temporary) Sasuke pain. You even said so yourself in your Naruto/Sakura manifesto with this:

(Part 2, section II, point 1) “Yet his [Naruto’s] own pain far surpassed anything she [Sakura] could have ever felt. And Sakura does not back down.”

So you excuse Sakura’s inability to understand his pain because she keeps trying to help him. Yet when it comes to Hinata, your view seems to sound more like this:

“Yet Naruto’s own pain far surpassed anything Hinata could have ever felt. That’s why Hinata can’t help him and they shouldn’t be together.”

The only true difference is that circumstance has given Sakura a better position to try to help Naruto than it has Hinata. I’ll elaborate more on that in just a bit, though.

II.2. The current plotlines, involving the "jinchuuriki" and the "Sasuke" plotlines, have been main guiding forces since the Start

Once again, the pain of losing Sasuke is likely a very temporary pain, and will probably be resolved before any of the other main plotlines in the series.

Why don’t you think any new plotlines could appear? The battles involving Hidan and Kakuzu count as a subplot of the main Akatsuki plotline, and has allowed for development of Asuma and team 10 (Though it has centered around Shikamaru). You mention Danzou’s political schemes as a plotline yourself, which wasn’t introduced until part 2, and looks to become quite important (In fact, given the common political background, it may be possible to fit a ‘Hyuuga Reformation’ plotline into the larger ‘Danzou’s Schemes’ plotline). If the manga just focuses on the main plotlines of “Save Sasuke. Destroy Akatsuki.” without introducing any subplots to resolve along the way, it’s going to be pretty boring.

Besides, Hinata (And anyone else in Konoha, for that matter) can tie into these plotlines, though not as directly as Naruto, since all three plotlines you mentioned involve enemies of Konoha as a whole. After all, Akatsuki may be tied directly to Naruto, but he hasn’t been going solo against all the Akatsuki members. Hell, he hasn’t even lifted a finger against Kakuzu and Hidan yet.

The Sasuke plotline is open to outside assistance as well. After all, Naruto, Sakura, and Kakashi are the only good guys who tie directly into this plotline (And recently Sai, sort of), but that certainly didn’t seem to stop Shikamaru, Chouji, Kiba, Neji, Lee, the sand siblings, and Yamato from coming along. Nor did it stop Naruto from asking all his friends for help (To no avail) before setting out for ‘Rescue Sasuke, take 2’.

Lastly, keep in mind that Hinata still needs to fully resolve her transformation from a weakling into a respectable ninja. Considering all of the main arcs are going to involve combat (It’s a manga about ninjas, after all), Hinata can very easily receive necessary character development in pretty much any arc. Besides, since team 8 is the only team that has yet to have a decent part 2 appearance, it’s quite possible that Hinata’s time to shine is coming up next.

II.3. How Hinata doesn't tie into them in any way (isn't it obvious?), while someone else Does.

And now we hit this: Sakura’s side of the image here perfectly illustrates the true source of her advantage. Aside from understanding Naruto better on the (likely temporary) Sasuke issue, any advantage Sakura has over Hinata when it comes to relating to/helping Naruto stems purely from circumstance. Sakura was placed on team 7, Hinata was not. And as such, Sakura has spent more time around Naruto, and Hinata has not. Sakura was the one there to see Kyuubi, and Hinata was not. Sakura is the one to help her partner Naruto when he’s in a pinch, and Hinata is not. It comes from no personal merit of Sakura or personal fault of Hinata; Sakura is simply the one who was put on Naruto’s team, and Hinata was not.

REMEMBER: Hinata has her own missions and team mates to worry about. She doesn’t have the luxury of sitting around in Konoha all day waiting for a chance to rescue Naruto from trouble. This is not an indication of any unwillingness or inability to help Naruto; Hinata simply isn’t in a position where she can always be there to help him.

Not to say that it isn’t worth considering; as you say later on, “circumstances shape a relationship as much as everything else.” But if a relationship is to form between Naruto and Sakura instead of Naruto and Hinata, I for one would like to think it was for more reason than “Circumstance handed Sakura a better chance to be with Naruto than it did Hinata.”

If you consider this advantage of circumstance to be a legitimate enough reason on its own to favor Naruto/Sakura over Naruto/Hinata, well, it’s simply a difference of opinion between us and can’t be debated. If this is how you see it, then “Because I’m Here” is certainly an appropriate title for your Naruto/Sakura manifesto.

As for Naruto v. Neji, of course Naruto identified Hinata’s situation with Neji when he was fighting him. It was for two reasons:

1) The identification between Naruto and Hinata had already been established. The connection is drawn between them in their shared ninja way, and again when Lee says that Hinata is very similar to Naruto. It’s also already established at that point in the manga that both Naruto and Hinata are desperately seeking acknowledgment.

2) Naruto comparing Hinata to himself wouldn’t have meant anything to Neji. Imagine: Naruto says, “Hinata too has suffered. In truth, she and I are alike!” To which Neji replies, “Yes, you are both losers. So?” Ooh, Naruto sure got Neji with that one.

II.4. Maybe other themes? Bringing back the acknowledgement and confidence themes? Cheering up? Politics? Just romance?

As I said before, Hinata does not need to tie directly into any of the presently established plotlines to take part in them and develop. After all, what connection did Shikamaru have to akatsuki/Hidan and Kakuzu prior to the team 10 arc?

I agree that having Naruto’s friends turn on him or Hinata playing the ‘brother’ card would be stretching it. However, in the latter case, that certainly didn’t seem to stop Kishimoto from comparing Neji and Sasuke.

As for politics...

It’s possible that politics in the Narutoverse wouldn’t allow for such a union. Not that there’s currently a way of knowing, since the finer points of Konoha politics haven’t been covered. Nonetheless, even if Hinata doesn’t become clan head, she may still be able to aid him from a political standpoint, at least as far as advising goes. It’s possible that Hinata received some grooming for handling political situations before her training was abandoned, and it’s almost a definite that Hinata would naturally have a better head for such matters than Naruto (As would Sakura, admittedly).

As for Hinata’s role as clan head being overshadowed by Naruto’s role as clan head... I have a bigger bone to pick with you about this particular argument, but that will wait until my extra at the end of the essay. For now, I’m just going to point out one issue with this view of yours.

In this scenario of Hinata being clan head and married to Naruto, it’s obvious that Hinata has received the acknowledgment she wanted from both her father and Naruto. However, you still cite ‘being overshadowed’ as a reason the two should not be together. If you find it absolutely necessary that Hinata surpass Naruto in some ways, I’ll again remind you that she could easily do so in medics and intelligence.

“But wait! Wouldn’t Hinata’s academic intelligence and medical ability be outshined by Sakura’s?” Probably. But by the logic used here, that wouldn’t matter, since Hinata wouldn’t be in a relationship with Sakura and thus wouldn’t be compared to her. Hinata just needs to be better at it than Naruto.

Perhaps you might argue that since Hinata probably isn’t going to become legendary in those fields (like Sakura has been hinted to), it wouldn’t be enough for her to escape Naruto’s shadow. But like I said earlier, this scenario has already established that Hinata has successfully achieved the acknowledgment she wanted. If you still maintain that ‘being overshadowed’ means Naruto and Hinata shouldn’t be together in this situation, I can only see one possible rationalization for this viewpoint: You think Hinata shouldn’t marry Naruto because she probably won’t be as famous as him. And that kind of view leads perfectly into my rant at the end of this essay.

II.5. Things that don't help #1: how Kishimoto missed all these "opportunities" to develop NaruHina

By missed opportunities, I can only imagine you mean “parts in the manga where Hinata could’ve shown up, but didn’t”, since the vast majority of Hinata’s screentime has focused on her feelings.

"But why hasn’t Hinata gotten any real screentime since the training field?” Well, let's look at the arcs that have followed since the chuunin exams.

The 'Tsunade/sannin' arc: This arc was centered around the sannins. The other genins didn't have a place in this arc, not even Naruto's own team.

The 'Sasuke retrieval' arc: Hinata didn't come along for two manga-based reasons:

1: The same reason that Sakura didn't come along: At that point in the manga, neither Sakura nor Hinata had enough strength to realistically be any help to the mission. If either were to be brought along, Kishimoto would have needed to contrive a 'trump card' for them like he did for Chouji to justify them winning/surviving long enough for reinforcements to survive.

2: That would mean placing her on the same mission as Neji, who was a good deal stronger than her at that point. It would have resulted in Hinata's battle being a repeat of Neji's battle, except on a smaller scale.

"But why hasn't she helped Naruto post-timeskip?" Because the current pattern in the manga is focusing on one team at a time. The order thus far has been Team Sand, Team 7, and Team 10. Her turn hasn't come yet, but since Team Gai received a minor role in the Team Sand arc, Team 8 is likely next.

Also, considering that Naruto and Hinata are now friends with each other, and considering Hinata's apparent desire to confess her feelings for him, it would be pretty hard to develop Naruto/Hinata further without things turning romantic. The end of the manga still seems to be a ways off; if the next arc featuring Hinata will push Naruto and Hinata into a romantic relationship, then Kishimoto may have avoided Hinata’s character thus far to avoid resolving a relationship between Naruto/Hinata too soon.

I know you’ve stated that you prefer the more gradual development Naruto/Sakura seems to be making (Assuming it’s romantic), but that may not be Kishimoto’s intent for Naruto/Hinata (Assuming it happens). Still, the pace of Naruto/Hinata development during the chuunin exams was satisfactory to me; if Kishimoto can at least maintain his track record for their development in Hinata’s next appearance, then I don’t imagine I’ll be disappointed by the time a resolution for the pairing rolls around.

As for your list...

Once again, all these advantages Sakura has are purely circumstantial. While I can certainly see how this is a factor in her favor from a storytelling standpoint (More screentime around Naruto = more opportunities to have development with his character), it does nothing to prove that Sakura is a better match or Hinata is a worse match for Naruto character-wise.

Lastly, while I’d be surprised if Hinata didn’t do her part to help Naruto, she doesn’t have to be the main one to ‘save’ him to have a relationship with him. If a character can only have a relationship with someone who has ‘saved’ him/her, then Kishimoto needs to include Naruto/Hinata. After all, Naruto’s inspiration saved Hinata from being a pathetic failure.

II.6. Things that don't help #2: Kishimoto preferred to introduce two brand-new characters to deal with these aspects of Naruto rather than force Hinata into dealing with them

Hinata is a previously established character who still has her own theme in need of resolution. It’d be strange to twist her character to try and fit her into a role her character wasn’t designed for (But remember, Sakura’s character wasn’t designed for it either).

Besides, Hinata (or Sakura, for that matter) saving Naruto from Kyuubi ‘through the power of love’ would just be TOO cheesy. Yamato’s KWGoD method is preferable. ;)

II.7. In short: how she's really, Really unlikely to help Naruto deal with his problems, thus take this relation out of shallow one-sided admiration into two-sided Mutual admiration and respect

I’ve already explained how Hinata is capable of helping with Naruto’s problems and overcoming her idolization.

Your sarcasm is really pushing it. As I said before, it’s unfair to call Hinata’s feelings static before she’s had a significant appearance in a part 2 arc. The disdain with which you speak of Hinata’s ‘viewpoint’ when it hasn’t been established if this is true really makes it hard to believe you when you say you are a Hinata fan (Her brief post-timeskip appearance was only meant to show off her new character design and show that her feelings still exist, it does nothing to prove her character is static).

And once again, aside from the Sasuke situation, Sakura doesn’t relate to Naruto’s current pains any better than Hinata does. Sakura is merely in a better position to try and help him. Plus, as I said before, Sakura saving Naruto does not mean Sakura and Naruto will get together.

III. Why I'd think it off character-wise as well

III.1. Reminder #1: Naruto has never been romantically attracted to Hinata. "I like people LIKE you." Not "I like you."

Naruto’s interest in Hinata truly manifested itself during the Hinata v. Neji fight. However, he was too infatuated with Sakura at the time to look at anyone else. It wasn’t until his ‘promise of a lifetime’ that he accepted the fact that he’s probably just going to stay a friend in Sakura’s eyes. Not to say Naruto isn't still open to the idea of a relationship with Sakura; all I mean is he's no longer making any real effort to pursue her.

And then, there’s never really been an opening for Naruto/Hinata to develop afterwards, timeline-wise. He jumps immediately from the hospital after the failed mission into the training journey with Jiraiya. Then almost immediately after he gets home, he gets wrapped up with saving Gaara. As soon as he gets home after that, he learns that he’s got another opportunity to save Sasuke (Though he met Hinata during this time, he’s not going to stick around and chat when a chance to save his friend is right in front of his face). Then immediately after that, Naruto focuses himself on his training.

By the way, remember that Naruto likes Hinata for the exact same reason he likes Sakura: Her desire to be acknowledged. Though he hasn’t considered Hinata in a romantic light thus far (At the time, he was still focused solely on Sakura), the door is open for a relationship between them.

III.2. Reminder #2: Hinata's attitude towards Naruto is more positive idolization (with a resulting crush) than tragic unrequited love

When Hinata finally makes her reappearance in the manga, we’ll see just how much she does (or doesn’t) understand Naruto.

III.3. Unless something happens, Naruto has no real reason to prefer Hinata over Sakura. No, Hinata hasn't "always been there" for him. Naruto's actually grown fonder of Sakura's personality

So sorry, but you can’t have it both ways. If Sakura can realize what she’s been missing by always looking at Sasuke instead of Naruto, Naruto can realize what he’s been missing by always looking at Sakura instead of Hinata. To say otherwise is a double standard.

Your argument for why Naruto/Sakura wouldn’t be a ‘consolation prize’ can just as easily be adapted to Naruto/Hinata: “The reason Naruto never bothered with Hinata before is because he had always thought she was just some ‘shy dark weirdo’, and even after Naruto learned otherwise, he still didn’t know Hinata as well as Sakura, and was still determined to win Sakura’s heart. But now that he’s willing to accept he may never be more than friends with Sakura, he may give Hinata a chance and come to realize Hinata’s someone he could love just as much, if not more.”

As for ‘what she can offer’...

- Acceptance?

As you said, Hinata already has accepted Naruto, and learning of the Kyuubi wouldn’t change this. Hinata’s acceptance would be unconditional as well.

- someone to admire?

Because Naruto wasn’t impressed by Hinata during her fight with Neji? “I never realized Hinata was so incredible...” Naruto isn’t impressed by the abilities of people like Lee, Shikamaru, Kiba, Neji, or any of his other peers? Or by Sakura, who is currently a chuunin, despite her potential?

Naruto isn’t an elitist asshole who would look down on people, saying “Sorry, but I could beat you. You’re not worth my time.”

- company?

Hinata’s lack of screentime is by no means an indication that Naruto and Hinata can’t get along. Naruto communicates just fine with Hinata; the only barrier between them is Hinata’s nervousness when in his presence.

Again, Hinata’s databook 1 profile: “The reserved and shy Hinata. She freezes and can't do anything in front of the one she likes, Naruto. She's always thinking of how she wants to change that part of herself.”

Like I said before: Considering that Hinata’s core theme is change, and she wants to change this part of herself, do you really think this issue with their communication is there to stay?

- Possessing the desire for acknowledgment that Naruto likes so much? (Shortened from your especially long note)

Funny, acknowledgment is exactly what Hinata wants most as well. From Naruto, no less (V9_C80_P13 and 14).

And once again, for the relatively little amount of time Hinata and Naruto have spent together, the potential for a relationship between them developed quite well. Do I even need to link it?

- post-timeskip, he seems to enjoy Sakura's company just as much, if not more now.

Yeah, Sakura is a close friend to him, certainly.

- And look at that happy smile on his face the first time Sakura blew up the ground below Kakashi.

He wore a very similar ‘happy smile’ not long after that one, when he was remembering the chuunin exams. Here, let's do a side by side comparison:

Same small smile, same slightly narrowed eyes, slightly different angle. I wonder what he’s thinking? “The chuunin exams... Back then, I actually saw Hinata fairly often. Those were the days...” Maybe. ;)

Once again, about the idolization issue: If Hinata never ‘reaches Naruto’s side’, her core theme of change will likely be left unfulfilled. The time will come when Hinata sees Naruto as a peer to stand beside, instead of an idol to chase after.

IV. Wait, but since I don't dismiss the possibility of NaruHina happening Anyway, then... how?

And I don’t dismiss the possibility of Naruto/Hinata happening regardless of whether or not Sasuke/Sakura happens.

Once again, you can’t have it both ways. If Sakura can realize what she was missing in Naruto, Naruto can realize what he was missing in Hinata. If Hinata is Naruto’s consolation prize for not being able to win Sakura over, Naruto is Sakura’s consolation prize for being unable to win Sasuke over. If you twist two edges of a cracker in opposite directions, it’s going to break.

I certainly don’t want my pairing of choice to be a ‘consolation’ pairing, and you obviously don’t want yours to be one either, so I say we should agree that the former scenario is the correct one.

IV.1. Possibility #1: Kishimoto goes "out of his way" to stick Hinata into the story. I really doubt it's happening though. Hello, Naruto has bigger priorities

Kishimoto hasn’t had to ‘go out of his way’ to insert Naruto/Hinata development thus far. The closest thing to that is the meeting in the training field, and that didn’t seem out of place.

Again, Hinata does not have to be the central figure in helping Naruto solve his problems to have a romantic relationship with him.

Of course, I agree that Naruto isn’t going to actively pursue a relationship with Sasuke’s time limit hanging over his head.

IV.2. Possibility #2: "Chichi/Goku". A relationship "out of nowhere." And worse: a consolation relationship. No thanks

Can’t have it both ways, blah blah blah.

Honestly, it annoys me when people say “This could happen in Naruto because ‘such and such’ happened in other mangas!” If Naruto/Hinata or Naruto/Sakura happen, I’d rather it be because Kishimoto intended for it to happen for the sake of his story, not because he was following a precedent established in other stories.

IV.3. So you're saying that Naruto can only end up with Sakura?

We’ve already been over the issue of shared and unique aspects, the issue of idolization, and the issue of overshadowing/acknowledgment.

I’ll remind you that Hinata has only shown a desire for acknowledgment from Naruto and Hiashi/the Hyuuga clan. If Hinata is married to Naruto and is the Hyuuga clan head, it’s obvious that she’s managed to achieve both, regardless of whether or not Naruto overshadows her/is more famous than her.

And as I said before, your ‘overshadow’ argument really irks me, but I’ll hold my tongue just a while longer.

- Part 3. Why the fandom really doesn't help. -

It’s an unfortunate fact that almost all fanfics (Not just Naruto/Hinata ones) either suck or are mediocre.

I’m skipping most of this since it’s just bashing the fandom, and honestly, I agree completely, except for:

I. The thing is, the manga has already provided a situation in which she had near-exclusive acknowledgement of Naruto (not counting Iruka). It shows what she did: nothing

I already covered my reasoning for this scenario in part 2, section I, point 2.

VI. The fact that there isn't really anything in Hinata's character that would have made Naruto naturally attracted to her also doesn't help

There’s nothing in Hinata’s character to naturally attract Naruto to Hinata? You mean other than desire for acknowledgment, which is the main quality that attracted Naruto to Sakura?

Conclusion: An enduring faith

It seems to me that you believe Kishimoto is unable to write a quality Naruto/Hinata relationship into the manga at this point. However, there are two things to consider:

1) We don’t know how much longer the manga will go on. For all we know, there could be plenty of time for Kishimoto to write in a believable Naruto/Hinata romance.

2) Kishimoto may have a more minimalistic idea of what qualifies as a romance than either of us, and/or he may decide to leave the pairings open-ended at the manga’s conclusion, either of which would probably make this entire point moot.

And so, when all is said and done, my faith endures.

Still reading? Well, I applaud your stamina. My extras can be found here: http://veil-of-dreams.livejournal.com/1103.html

An Enduring Faith, part 1

2006-12-22T23:25:01Z

EDIT: Livejournal was giving me a lot of grief when I posted this essay. For some reason, it liked to randomly decide whether or not it centers images on the page even when I used the same method of centering for all of them, so I had to rely on horizontal alignment as a substitute. As such, this essay is optimized for viewing in a 1024x768 resolution; if the alignment of images looks funky, and that's not your resolution, that's probably the reason. I'll work on fixing it later.

Special thanks to Darkhope, Kubik, OniRaitei, and Phoenixblood for proofreading this essay and offering their own suggestions.

“An Enduring Faith”, A.K.A. “Why I dislike Mizura’s reasons for disliking Naruto/Hinata as a Hinata fan”

Up to date as of manga chapter 336

Basically, I read through Mizura’s essay and disagreed with a great deal of it. Even worse, when I read through the comments, I found myself increasingly annoyed at every person who raved about how great and amazing the essay is at proving why Naruto/Hinata shouldn’t happen, and I found myself thinking “I could do better.” when reading the comments of those who argued against the essay.

However, a comment is a terrible place to try and write a comprehensive counter. Thus the anti-anti-Naruto/Hinata essay was born.

This essay has only minimal quotes from that which it counters. To fully appreciate my counter, you’ll want to read Mizura’s essay alongside it: http://heronite.livejournal.com/3227.html

If your browser of choice is capable of tabbed browsing, open Mizura’s essay in another tab. If you don’t have tabbed browsing, well, why not? Eh, I guess a second window will suffice.

BE WARNED: All told, this essay weighs in at just over 13,000 words (12,000 if you don’t count the extras at the end). And that’s only on this side of the fence; Mizura’s essay is almost as long, giving the two a combined total of nearly 26,000 words. For those with an aversion to too much reading, I’m considering making a ‘lite’ version of this essay with a quote/paraphrase of each argument used in Mizura’s essay along with my associated counter. It might be a while before that gets made, though.

Before I get started, I’ll go ahead and answer these potential questions before they’re asked:

Question: “The essay you’re countering is against Naruto/Hinata, yet you mention Naruto/Sakura multiple times. Why are you bringing Sakura into this?”

Answer: If you read Mizura’s essay, you’ll notice that she often tries to point out flaws in a Naruto/Hinata relationship by comparing it in a negative light to Naruto/Sakura. Since this is a direct counter to Mizura’s essay, it’s only natural that I would fight on the same battlefield.

Note that any apparent "attacks" on Naruto/Sakura in my essay are made in context of how I see it measuring up against Naruto/Hinata on the same scale. They're not meant to be attacks on Naruto/Sakura, they're meant to be attacks on Mizura's reasons for disliking Naruto/Hinata.

Question: “Why didn’t you just quote all the relevant parts of Mizura’s argument for your counter-essay?”

Answer: Because both Mizura’s essay and my counter-essay are simply beastly. Trying to combine the two would create an internet consuming behemoth of literary terror... Or something. I tried to make it clear what my different arguments are referring to in each part, and I think I did a decent job.

Question: "You speculate a lot in your essay. A whole hell of a lot, actually."

Answer: That's not a question. :/ Either way, I'll be the first to admit that my speculation may be reading too much into things, but it's still worth considering.

Question: “So why did you decide to call this essay ‘An Enduring Faith’, anyway?”

Answer: My decision to use this title was made in light of two facts about my opponent, Mizura:

1) She claims to be a former Naruto/Hinata fan, but now she (obviously) hates the pairing.

2) Mizura’s current Narutofan.com forum avatar, which she has been using since the first time I saw her, has the words “All out of faith” written down the right side of the image.

The tie-in was just too much for me to ignore. ;)

Without further ado, allow me to present “An Enduring Faith”, an anti-anti-Naruto/Hinata essay.

I.1. Hinata has other means through which she could and probably will get resolution. She isn't a mere love interest.

I agree and disagree. While Hinata is not a mere love interest, she needs more than one resolution to ‘wrap up’ her character. Instead of "Hinata has other means through which she could get resolution", it would be more accurate to say that she has "multiple aspects of her character in need of resolution".

Hinata’s rejection from the Hyuuga clan needs to be resolved, likely by her father acknowledging her (And the Hyuuga clan as a whole, but her father is the central point of this aspect of Hinata’s character. His acceptance could count for the entire clan’s acceptance). Though Hinata becoming clan head is a possible conclusion, it is not necessary to fulfill this part of her character. So long as Hiashi acknowledges her as a changed person worthy of the Hyuuga name, preferably by mentioning/implying that she would make a worthy clan head at the same time, this part of her character will be resolved even if she doesn’t actually become the Hyuuga leader.

Her desire to change, while partially resolved back in part 1, should be completely resolved with her achieving a truly respectable victory, preferably with Naruto as a witness (Explained in the next point). This would fulfill her theme of change by demonstrating that she now has outer strength to match the inner strength she developed in part 1.

Hinata needs to know Naruto acknowledges her, so she can achieve her goal of being someone who stands at Naruto’s side, instead of merely staring at his back and feeling like she doesn’t measure up. This would remedy the issue of Hinata’s idolization of Naruto. It’s quite likely this resolution will take place at the same time as the resolution of her desire to change. NOTE: Despite what you say otherwise later in the essay, Naruto can and already has acknowledged Hinata, though she probably doesn’t know Naruto respects her as one of his peers.

“But wait! Maybe Hinata already knows Naruto acknowledges her, but still idolizes him anyway!” Like I said, probably not. If you’ll notice, during the Naruto v. Neji fight, Hinata becomes unable to watch the match right before Naruto defends Hinata’s efforts to change herself, which would have made it quite clear to Hinata that Naruto respects her. Why would Kishimoto have Hinata miss out on a scene that could play such a strong role in her character development? Perhaps since Naruto/Hinata had already received a good deal of development during the chuunin exam arc, Kishimoto decided to save it for later?

And yes, her romantic feelings for Naruto need to be resolved (I hesitate to use the word crush. Though it likely started as such, her feelings have received a significant amount of development and have persisted for 4+ years. I doubt the word crush effectively describes her affections for Naruto at this point). This resolution will likely be achieved by her confession followed by either Naruto’s acceptance, or Naruto’s rejection and Hinata’s recovery. Considering the theme of part 2 is “People accepting other people”, which do you think is more likely?

“But wait! Naruto really hasn’t known Hinata for that long, and there’s no proof Naruto could develop feelings for Hinata. Wouldn’t he avoid a relationship with Hinata because of that?” My response to this can be found in part 2, section I, point 1.

On top of this, I personally would like to see Hinata play an important role in uniting the Hyuuga clan, whether by becoming the Hyuuga head to repair the clan, or by some other means, such as developing a method to remove the caged bird seal. However, it is not required for Hinata to play a central role in this matter, though it would certainly be strange if Hinata did not. Hinata’s character concept has been focused more on personal growth/changing herself, whereas Neji’s character concept has been focused more on defying his would-be fate as a member of the branch family. As such, while Hinata ties in to this plotline, Neji is most likely to be the central figure for when it is resolved.

For those who care about my stance on resolving the Hyuuga family, I’ve included it in its own section, “The Hyuuga Clan Conclusion”, at the end of the essay.

By the way... You really shouldn’t accuse others of simplifying Hinata’s character when you’re guilty of the same thing. Throughout your essay, you keep saying you want Hinata to focus on more than just love, more than just romance, and then you try to rationalize why Hinata’s character should end up without the romance, which would mean Hinata’s character would have less. Where some people try to simplify Hinata by focusing on her affection, you’re trying to simplify her by removing it.

I.2. In fact, "love" has never been a motivator for her character growth. "Admiration" (like with everyone else) was

Hinata’s feelings of admiration and affection stem from the same source, and both influence her actions. In other words, Hinata’s thoughts and actions concerning Naruto are influenced by her feelings as a whole, not just admiration or just affection.

Plus, since Kishimoto has demonstrated that Hinata’s romantic feelings for Naruto are still present post timeskip, that is still an aspect of her character that needs resolution. At this point, simply ignoring Hinata’s affections and never bringing them up again would leave a loose end. Besides, why would Kishimoto keep Hinata’s affections after the time jump if he didn’t plan on resolving them?

Also, I don’t see how the other characters Naruto has inspired factor into this, since they never had any romantic feelings for him. Of course they wouldn’t lose relevance/leave a loose end if they didn’t pursue a relationship with him.

I.3. How others have fared in the name of admiration: in short, how her crush really doesn't seem to have added anything more.

Whether or not Hinata’s affections have been a positive influence on her actions thus far is beside the point. The fact remains that it is still an aspect of Hinata’s character, her feelings (yes, both her admiration and affection) have received attention in the manga, and her affection still exists and has yet to be resolved. Besides, the negative side effects will fade as her confidence builds up and she grows more comfortable around Naruto. This would be the natural progression considering her core theme of change, as well as her databook entry which also specifically called out her desire to change those aspects of herself.

From databook 1: “The reserved and shy Hinata. She freezes and can't do anything in front of the one she likes, Naruto. She's always thinking of how she wants to change that part of herself.”

From databook 2: “She wishes that she could move even one step closer towards the back of Naruto, her idol...”

Also databook 2: “Hinata, always feeling the same towards Naruto. Will the day come when she can face him directly?”

Remember: While Hinata’s affections have made it difficult for Hinata to interact with Naruto under normal circumstances, they have not stopped her from acting when it truly matters. After all, Hinata was able to do her best while fighting Neji even with her well aware of Naruto watching her every move, and she was able to talk to and encourage Naruto when he was dreading his upcoming fight with Neji.

As for the character comparison, Hinata is worse off for being ‘just’ a chuunin? Even though Sakura, who is foreshadowed to eventually surpass Tsunade, is currently ‘just’ a chuunin herself? So if Sakura, who has the potential to become legendary, is currently on the same level as Hinata, is that a boon to Hinata’s character, or a blow to Sakura’s?

I.4. But having a crush on Naruto is a fundamental part of her character!

Hinata’s feelings and Ino’s crush aren’t even near the same level. Hinata’s feelings actually received focus and explanation for why she feels the way she does about Naruto, whereas Ino’s explanation was... uh... Sasuke is hot?

Though Ino’s crush was mentioned multiple times, Ino’s crush was never explored/elaborated on like Hinata’s feelings were during Naruto v. Kiba, Hinata v. Neji, and on the training field before Naruto v. Neji. Trying to lump Hinata’s affections together with Ino’s (Or Lee’s, for that matter) is laughable.

If Hinata’s feelings were only meant to be an instigator for change and if having stood up for herself in the chuunin exam had brought her resolution, they most likely would have been dropped like Ino’s and Lee’s were during the time jump. Instead, we get reminded that Hinata's romantic feelings are still present.

As such, suddenly dropping Hinata’s feelings at this point would be bad writing, since they received so much attention, whereas Ino and Lee never got any development beyond “I have a crush on person x.”

Also, Hinata was not ‘just fangirling’ like Sakura or Ino (Though Sakura’s feelings developed into something deeper during part 1, that’s a different subject entirely). While it’s true all of them had crushes, Sakura and Ino simply tried to make themselves look pretty to attract Sasuke’s attention. Even with Sasuke verbally beating Sakura over the head with the reason he didn’t respect her, it took Sasuke betraying Konoha and Naruto returning near dead for her to truly dedicate herself to improving.

Not Hinata. She was amazed and motivated by Naruto’s inner strength, and used his example to work and earnestly try to change herself. She admired and developed a crush on Naruto for good reasons and used his inspiration toward constructive ends to improve herself. Then during the Hinata v. Neji fight, she wanted Naruto to see and respect her for her abilities and willpower, instead of just trying to make herself pretty and hoping Naruto starts drooling over her.

Hinata’s affections do not have a comedic basis. Though some attempts at comedy stem from it (Hinata’s over-the-top blushing and fainting), Hinata’s feelings were explored in a completely serious manner multiple times during the chuunin exams. Saying Hinata's feelings have a comedic basis because of these moments would be the same as me saying Naruto/Sakura has a comedic basis because of Sakura's over-the-top punching of Naruto.

Lastly, it’s unfair to say that Hinata’s feelings are ‘static’ when she hasn’t had a significant appearance in the manga in such a long time. But likewise, I’ll cover this in part 2 of my counter.

I.5. But if she doesn't hook up with Naruto, isn't that mean to her?

I wouldn’t describe Hinata’s romance aspect as comedic or tragic; however, it is serious. Like I said earlier, there have been serious scenes for her feelings, because you can’t simply assign a single feeling to all of Hinata’s actions. All her thoughts and actions that involve Naruto are influenced by her feelings for him as a whole, not simply admiration or simply affection.

Hinata’s feelings for Naruto are deep and the potential for a relationship between them has been developed quite a bit considering the relatively small amount of interaction they’ve had. I trust you are familiar with this recent manifesto?: http://community.livejournal.com/ship_manifesto/157549.html

As for Naruto ending up with someone else... While I don’t doubt that in ‘the real world’ Hinata would get over it and move on, this conclusion would make for one hell of a cop-out resolution to her feelings in ‘the manga world’. “I never got the courage to tell Naruto how I feel, and now it’s too late... Oh well, that sucks, life goes on.” Uh, no. That’s not going to cut it.

Hinata will grow out of her idolization of Naruto when she knows he acknowledges her.

II. How as a Hinata fan, I'd Also rather if her character focused on more than just love

And I, as a Hinata fan, would rather focus on her entire character, instead of ignoring or trying to remove any part of her I didn’t like.

II.1. Forging her own path, like all the others who have been inspired by Naruto have been

And as I said, I view her admiration and her affection for Naruto to be two different aspects of her feelings as a whole, and it is her feelings that influence her interactions with Naruto. Whether or not Hinata’s affections have been a positive influence thus far and the general lack of romantic feelings among the other people Naruto has inspired are irrelevant to the matter at hand, and once again, her romantic feelings for Naruto haven’t prevented her from doing her best when it truly matters.

As for each person setting off for a path independent of Naruto...

Are you kidding? All of the people you mentioned have grown closer to Naruto’s path through his inspiration. It only takes a glance at each character’s history to realize that.

Neji had more or less resigned himself to his ‘fate’ as a branch house member, believing it was impossible for people to change the lot life gives them. Naruto pummeled him off that path and now Neji is on one of Naruto’s own paths: the path of never giving up, of constantly struggling against your obstacles to overcome them.

Sakura rarely concerned herself with anything beyond Sasuke, and constantly moped about how useless to the team she was without ever really doing anything to improve her situation. But now she, like Naruto, is constantly pushing herself to grow, and is determined to take an active role in saving Sasuke.

Gaara had built his existence around killing others, and rejected the concepts of friends, family, and love. Naruto’s influence brought Gaara onto two paths extremely similar to Naruto’s central paths: The path to Kazekage, and the path of a man willing to sacrifice himself for the sake of others. Gaara even said himself that he’s trying to become like Naruto.

Tsunade had spent who knows how many years drinking, gambling, and drifting around without any purpose in life, mourning the loss of those close to her. Naruto’s inspiration took her off her aimless path of cynicism and depression and set her on the path to Hokage, which is one of the exact same paths Naruto himself is on.

Konohamaru was a brat who wanted the respect of a Hokage without actually earning it. Naruto taught him that it was impossible for that to happen, and now Konohamaru actually is on the path to Hokage as well, instead of that simply being a dream he didn’t have the maturity to reach.

And Hinata was a weakling with no faith in her self worth. Naruto’s inspiration took her off of this dead end path and now she, like Naruto, is working tirelessly to prove that she’s not a failure, and can be someone worthy of respect.

I think I may understand what you’re really trying to say when you claim Hinata should be on a path ‘independent of Naruto’. If you’re trying to say Hinata should be capable of growing stronger and fighting on her own power without requiring Naruto’s inspiration and encouragement to keep her going, I agree. However, this is likely already the case; after all, Hinata became a chuunin during Naruto’s two and a half year absence.

Even so, remember that a big message in the Naruto series is that it is because of and for other people that one becomes strong. People grow and become truly strong because they realize their interdependence. Wanting her to shine on her own is good, but viewing someone as an inspiration is hardly a step down in this series.

As for the Hyuuga clan, I agree that Hinata should play a significant role in repairing the Hyuuga clan (Though as I said before, it isn’t required for her resolution, strange as it would be for her to not have a large role in it). But that doesn’t mean Naruto can’t help as well, especially considering he did promise to change the Hyuuga clan personally, just like Hinata is still capable of helping Naruto with ‘his current pains’, as you like to call them. I’ll discuss that more thoroughly when you bring it up in part 2, though.

Remember that it is Neji’s character who is primarily focused on the Hyuuga division/his ‘fate’ as a branch member, whereas Hinata’s character is primarily focused on changing herself/personal growth. If Naruto fixed the Hyuuga problems himself while the Hyuugas sat on their thumbs, it would be a blow to Neji, not Hinata.

Also, Hinata very likely does need to achieve the resolution to her personal growth through Naruto, because he’s the one she has measured herself by all this time. She doesn’t need to meet or beat Naruto’s ability to achieve this; she simply needs to prove herself as a ninja worthy of respect. By saying Naruto won’t acknowledge Hinata, you’re saying he won’t acknowledge people like Lee, Shikamaru, Shino, or any of the other ‘mere’ chuunins in the series. Hell, despite Sakura’s potential, she’s currently a ‘mere’ chuunin, and Naruto acknowledges her.

REMEMBER: Naruto already has acknowledged Hinata once before. Back during the Hinata v. Neji fight, Naruto did acknowledge Hinata’s strength (“I never knew Hinata was this incredible...”), even though the Hinata who lost to Neji likely would have lost to Naruto as well. As far as we know, Hinata simply isn’t aware that Naruto already holds her in such high regard.

Saying Naruto would never acknowledge someone who can’t meet or beat his power is saying Naruto is an elitist bastard, which he isn’t.

Also, even if Hinata does compete with Naruto on “his own turf”, keep in mind that Hinata’s byakugan and vastly different fighting style makes her capable of feats Naruto is unable to duplicate, and the reverse applies when considering Naruto’s impressive strength and stamina. Why wouldn’t they respect and admire each other for their unique capabilities in combat?

And even if Naruto is overall better than Hinata at straight up combat, what makes you think Hinata wouldn’t outshine Naruto in medics and intelligence? After all, Ino knows medical jutsu despite (probably) never being tutored by Tsunade, and the chakra control required to effectively use the Hyuuga techniques means Hinata would make a respectable medic. And we all know how much better Hinata did on the academic part of the chuunin exams. Granted, it’s possible she could have used byakugan to cheat, but she was never shown doing so. Besides, it’s already established that Naruto was at the bottom of the class academically, and Hinata wasn’t.

II.2. More panels in the manga? Quality over quantity. Actually, quality over Lack of quantity anyway.

Considering this is a shounen manga, Kishimoto probably isn’t going to give romance tons of screen time.

As for Hinata’s brief post-timeskip appearance, it just wasn’t her time to shine. It’s likely Kishimoto pulled the ‘fainting’ card as an excuse not to elaborate on Hinata’s feelings, because it would have been awkward to switch the plot’s gears from "Naruto has to find help for saving Sasuke" to "Naruto and Hinata have a heart to heart... Right in front of Shino and Kiba o_O" Kishimoto’s main goal for that chapter was likely to show off all the new character designs before jumping into the next arc, ‘Rescue Sasuke, take 2’. Hinata’s feelings will most likely have to wait for the (hopefully) soon team 8 arc.

Of course, that’s not to say I wouldn’t love for Hinata to have more screen time. However, her relationship with Naruto has progressed well for the time she’s had, and I, for one, don’t feel their relationship is unnatural or rushed thus far. I’ve already linked this once, but I’ll do it again anyway: http://community.livejournal.com/ship_manifesto/157549.html

II.3. Unless something happens, she'd do nothing but agree with him. And well...

Unless something happens, Hinata would never disagree with Naruto... Something like changing her nature, which is the core theme of Hinata’s character?

Like it says in databook 1: “The reserved and shy Hinata. She freezes and can't do anything in front of the one she likes, Naruto. She's always thinking of how she wants to change that part of herself.”

Hinata not changing is the least likely problem to come up in a Naruto/Hinata relationship.

Besides, Hinata already has disagreed with Naruto. When Naruto said that he was weak, she quickly denied that, and told him why he was wrong.

Claiming that she’ll remain silent and submissive while Naruto goes around being an idiot is to deny her core character theme of change, especially considering Hinata has been the one to initiate conversation with Naruto before (During the chuunin exam written test).

Hinata will grow out of her idolization of Naruto when he makes it known to her that he respects her. This will finally place her at Naruto’s side in her mind, making her feel as one of his peers instead of an inferior.

Hinata has already proven she can focus on other matters (Without blushing, stuttering, or fainting!), even when Naruto is watching her like a hawk. Ironically enough, the ‘other matter’ in this scenario just so happens to involve her clan. Hinata has already proven that she has what it takes to say her piece when it matters, and she intends to get even better from there.

As for the ties to Naruto, I find it depressing that you seem to think Hinata needs to have suffered as much and/or in the same way as Naruto to be a viable partner for him. Nevertheless, I’ll bite:

- the pain of loneliness

Just because you’re surrounded by others doesn’t mean you’re not lonely. After all, Naruto was surrounded by the cold, contemptuous (towards him) people of Konoha, and he was lonely. Hinata was surrounded by the cold, contemptuous (towards her) members of the Hyuuga clan. Wouldn’t she be lonely as well? Granted, her loneliness likely didn't measure up to Naruto's; the cold eyes directed at a failure ninja in a harsh, prestigious clan probably aren't as painful as the cold eyes directed at someone regarded as a monster in human form.

“But wait! If that’s true, why didn’t Hinata relate to Naruto on the pain of loneliness?” For three reasons:

1) Kishimoto was already using the “training field” scene to relate Hinata and Naruto’s mutual desire for acknowledgment.

2) Doing so would mean Kishimoto would have to explain how Hinata knew Naruto was lonely, which she probably doesn’t (See part 2, section I, point 2 of my counter).

3) Having Naruto and Hinata relate on loneliness right before Naruto was supposed to relate to Gaara (Probably the person who has suffered the most from loneliness) would have weakened the emotional impact of the Naruto/Gaara scene and likely trivialized the Naruto/Hinata scene (At least as far as relating on loneliness goes). As I said before, though I do believe Hinata has suffered from loneliness, it was not to the degree Naruto did, and certainly not to the degree Gaara did.

- the pain of being a jinchuuriki

No one truly understands that except for a jinchuuriki. Unless you’re trying to argue that Naruto/Gaara is a better pairing, I don’t see how this is relevant.

- the pain of losing one of his first bonds

Though I have no concrete proof otherwise, I wouldn’t make this conclusion so quickly. Though it’s possible this may simply be another case of ‘missingus parentitis’, it is likely that Hinata’s mother is dead (Perhaps during childbirth with Hanabi or shortly after). Why is Hinata’s mother not present or mentioned during Hiashi’s abandonment of Hinata? I have a very hard time believing Hinata’s mother would have no important opinion or say regarding that matter. And again, why isn’t Hinata’s mother there when Hiashi and Hanabi were watching Naruto v. Neji? Wouldn’t she want to come with her husband and younger daughter to see the tournament? In light of these observations, it’s possible that Hinata does understand the pain of losing a loved one, through the loss of her mother.

Even if that’s not the case, there is another bond Hinata likely lost: A father-daughter bond. Do you think Hinata wasn't upset when her father called her a failure and abandoned her?

Perhaps you might argue that because of the problems in Hinata’s relationship with Hiashi, they never truly formed a bond to begin with. If that’s the case, Hinata should be able to relate to Naruto even better, considering he never had parents at all.

- the will to fight to the death for those precious to him

Hinata had the will to risk death fighting for change when facing Neji, yet you think she doesn’t have the will to risk death for those precious to her? A trait that is prevalent in the Naruto manga? Hell, I’m hard pressed to name a good guy/girl who doesn’t have this quality. Even Shikamaru and Chouji have put their lives on the line for the sake of others. I’m honestly shocked you wrote this, especially considering your comment near the end of your essay: “Hinata’s still my favourite character.” If that’s the case, then why do you have such a disturbingly low opinion of her?

This argument weakens even further if we take your own preference (Naruto/Sakura) into account. Sakura only ties into the bottom two of the five mentioned aspects, whereas Hinata ties into 3 and possibly 4. And yet you try to use these points against Naruto/Hinata, even when your preferred pairing is worse off when it goes up against the same argument?

As for your little picture, what happened to “Hinata isn’t a mere love interest”? We’re not discussing “simplified fandom Hinata” at this point; you’re supposed to be talking about the actual storyline Hinata, but you’re painting her as nothing but a love interest yourself. I thought you had been trying to argue that she was more than that, that she does have her own defining characteristics outside of Naruto?

Just as you initially claimed to be saying, Hinata does have her own problems to deal with, independent of Naruto: Everything involving the Hyuuga clan. While Naruto promised to help with this, he’s not really in a position to do much aside from influencing members of the Hyuuga clan (Which he has already done so, through Hinata, Neji, and possibly Hiashi), unless he becomes Hokage and thus gains the political leverage necessary to fight on that kind of battlefield. Even then, he probably wouldn’t be able to change the Hyuuga clan all by himself; he would need to work cooperatively with members of the clan that agree with him.

“But wait! If Naruto helps with the Hyuuga clan, wouldn’t that count as tying into that aspect?” Maybe. But by the same logic, Hinata is capable of tying into Naruto’s struggles with Sasuke and being a jinchuuriki, even if she isn’t directly connected to those issues.

That said, if you compare Sakura to the same scale, she once again comes out worse than Hinata does. What does Sakura have to her character outside of Naruto? If you count her relationships with other people (her other team members, Ino, and Tsunade), then you have to count Hinata’s other relationships (her other team members, Neji, and Hiashi) as well. If you count Sakura’s training regimen, then you have to count Hinata’s training as well. The other aspect of her character (her desire to rescue Sasuke) ties directly into Naruto’s character. As I see it, this leaves Sakura with nothing else to add to her character that counts as ‘not a part of Naruto’, whereas Hinata still has her family matters going for her (Even if Hinata isn’t required to solve them, she still ties into the matter as a Hyuuga). So it seems Sakura has less to her character outside Naruto than Hinata has.

Once again I’ll ask: Why are you using these arguments against Hinata when Sakura has just as much trouble (if not more) fighting them?

II.4. In the meantime, do I hate her now for fainting?

You said it yourself: Hinata is capable of overcoming the negative side effects of her feelings (The excessive blushing, fainting, and shyness) through being in a relationship with Naruto.

And once again, Ino’s feelings were never developed as much as Hinata’s.

II.5. In the end, also a problem for me of acknowledgement.

Wrong. Hinata desires acknowledgment from Naruto, Hiashi, and her family as a whole (However, Hiashi is in a way the embodiment of ‘the clan’, so his acceptance could count for the entire clan’s acceptance). Naruto is the one trying to prove himself to all of Konoha, not Hinata. If Hinata receives acknowledgment from the ones she cares about, then who cares what the rest of Konoha thinks? Besides, it’s likely Hinata will receive these resolutions to her character before Naruto becomes Hokage.

I’ve already covered how Hinata could be acknowledged by Naruto, and she could achieve acknowledgment from Hiashi in much the same way. Since this is what Hinata wanted in the first place, why should she care if Naruto is more impressive than her if that hasn’t stopped her from getting what she wants? Besides, even if being overshadowed was one of Hinata’s concerns, she could easily distinguish herself by being the one to develop a counter to the caged bird seal. For that, even if she does become ‘the hokage’s wife’ to the majority of Konoha, the Hyuuga clan will always remember her as the one who destroyed the symbol of the clan’s division, making unification possible.

As long as Hinata receives the acknowledgment she wants on her own merit, it doesn’t matter if she becomes ‘the hokage’s wife’. The men in black aren’t going to come to Konoha and mind wipe everyone if Naruto and Hinata get married. Hiashi isn’t going to say “Well, I remember respecting you as a worthy member of the Hyuuga clan before you married, but now it’s obvious you’re just the hokage’s wife.”

I agree that Hinata should not leave the clan ‘for love’. If the clan and her feelings for Naruto come into conflict, then she does need an active role in changing the clan. I doubt Naruto would be very impressed if Hinata ran from her problems instead of facing them.

And by the way, you’re forgetting a very important detail: if not for the light of the sun, you could never see the moon at all. ;)

III. Words on personal misinterpretations of mine, back when I supported NaruHina in part I

Though Naruto has not displayed romantic feelings for Hinata thus far, the foundation for a relationship was established during the chuunin exams, when Hinata changed from a ‘shy dark weirdo’ to a ‘kind of person I really like’ in Naruto’s mind. It’s especially important to note that Naruto likes Hinata for the exact same reason he likes Sakura: Desire for acknowledgment. This counts as development on Naruto’s side of the equation.

Once again: http://community.livejournal.com/ship_manifesto/157549.html

III.1. My first mistake: believing that Hinata would be playing a bigger role in Naruto's life.

Thus far, romance doesn’t seem to be a high priority in this series. Hinata’s romantic feelings aren’t guaranteed to buy her oodles of screen time.

Even so, I and most likely the rest of the Naruto/Hinata fandom are quite frustrated with Hinata’s extended absence, but the fanclub isn’t called “a patient love” for nothing. With the manga’s current pattern, it’s possible that the next arc will feature team 8 and center on Hinata, just like the first part 2 arc featured team Gai/the sand siblings and centered on Gaara, the next centered on all of team 7/Sasuke, and the current one features team 10 and centers on Shikamaru. If the entire team 8 arc comes and goes with no development between Naruto and Hinata, that’s when my patience will be wearing terribly thin. Until then, I will simply wait, keep the faith, and type this. ;)

III.2. My second mistake: thinking that Naruto was deep down the "quiet" type

Uh, Naruto had just returned to his home, Konoha, after being constantly on the move and separated from all his friends for 2.5 years. Naruto wasn’t ‘natural’, he was ecstatic. It was arguably one of the times he was most excited in all of the manga. Notice Jiraiya’s comment? “He’s certainly cheerful today, isn’t he...”

Anyway, as for whether or not Naruto is the quiet type...

Perhaps he still is. It’s quite possible that Naruto’s loud nature is a side effect of his desire for people to stop ignoring him, which would mean his volume level will probably turn down as he matures and earns the respect of Konoha. He’s got a respectable amount of devoted friends, but he still has a way to go before being acknowledged by the people of Konoha as a whole.

Even if that’s not the case, everyone wears different faces depending on the circumstance. While he may wear his ‘loud and confident’ face while out in public, confronting enemies, or making small talk with his friends, who’s to say that his quiet side, which he showed to Hinata out on the training field, isn’t the norm during more personal, private moments?

Also, You speak as though Hinata will remain a static character if she stays near Naruto. Considering that Naruto’s influence is the original and primary driving force behind Hinata’s transformation thus far, this assumption falls flat on its face. To say that Hinata will stay meek and silent while Naruto does whatever goes against her core theme of change.

I don’t think Hinata will become as bright and chirpy as Naruto usually is, but she’ll have enough of a voice to make her opinion known when necessary; after all, she has been the one to initiate conversation with Naruto on more than one occasion. I see an adult Hinata as having a calm, serene sort of confidence, perhaps like Shino, except not so aloof or austere.

I’ve already explained how Hinata can grow out of her idolization, and how she, like all the other people Naruto has inspired, has already left her negative path and chosen one closer to Naruto’s.

Continued in part 2: http://veil-of-dreams.livejournal.com/1018.html